nanowrimo_lj | accents

accents

Is any one else writing a story with an accented character and has decided to actually write the accents in? And having trouble with it? Or has any one had this problem in the past- whether for NaNoWriMo or just any story?

I mean, not the accent itself, but the fact it's nothing like how you normally write or talk.

Currently I'm writing a story about a man from the Ozarks, and I wanted the story to seem as if he was writing it himself... like an autobiography or something. So I decided to implement his accents. Now, I'm actually from down South (Arkansas, the same place he is) so I can write a Southern accent perfectly fine.

But... what's driving me crazy is it's NOTHING like how I talk at all. It's driving me insane, and it's making me have trouble writing. It just seems awkward and WEIRD. I keep wanting to go through and beta this man's writing and edit the hell out of it. I've only written 1,107 words so far. Sad.

I could start over and write it normally, but... I just am not seeing the novel that way, nor am I seeing the character speaking properly. He has Asperger's Syndrome (undiagnosed), and he wants to write just how he talks, or else he feels like it's not actually him writing it.

So I don't know if I should just keep writing until I finally get used to it or start working on a new novel... Someone give me a pep talk or something, or personal advice. D:

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Write it normal and then edit the accent in during the editing process?

I haven't experienced it, but read Forrest Gump! I think it's a horrible book, but it's written that way!

I've never read Forrest Gump, but I've seen parts of the movie, so I know what you mean. I actually normally HATE books with accents/where the character writes how they speaks but it was calling to me... (I make an exception for Flowers for Algernon, though, cause damn that novel is good.)

The movie is fantastic and the book is completely different and horrible. And hard to read because of the dialect/writing skills!

Wow, really? It's rare you hear someone say the movie is better than the book!

Now I want to watch Forrest Gump...

I think it's the only instance where I'd say the film version was better!

I took a Film and Novel class last year, and we would read the book and then watch the accompanying movie. We all hated it, lol. It was the worst one. Except for maybe A Clockwork Orange; I hated the movie and the book passionately.

I see your Forrest Gump, and raise you a Wizard of Oz. The book = HELLACIOUS CRAP.

I forgot about Wizard of Oz! I call.

LOL! I don't see how the FIRST book sold, much less the next 13. The movie > the book. BIG TIME.

And for personal preference, Lord of the Rings (movies) > Lord of the Rings (books), as well. No annoying tangents or random six-page poems to slog through!

Keep writing however it comes, if there's an accent, it's probably best because it makes sense to your writing brain to do it that way? You can always edit it for consistency later on. And even if you are from a similar place, I guess it doesn't necessarily mean you would sound the same? Go with it, worry about the details later! =)

I think if you're feeling it and you can actually do it without trying or thinking too hard, I say stick with it! It's kind of fun to get into a character's head that way, and it does become a lot easier over time.

The only downside is that it might start to become a little too natural to you and affect the way you think or talk. Just a little. ;)

The thing I've heard about dialect is that you write PART of it. Like, my MC has a lower-class accent, but I shore as heck hav't been writin' it all out like so's. :P You throw in a "gonna" and a "y'know" in here and there and that works. (I even splurged on a "natcherly"!) That way it's not annoying or hard to read, and the reader can still hear it in their head.

This.

I used to do Brokeback Mountain fanfiction, and when I wrote from Jack's POV I simply used Palinspeak - er, cut the "g"'s off the ends ("Me and Ennis went huntin every year").

Although - speaking as an Aspie - you're quite likely to have a man who's actually very fluent in language, so cut the accent. Maybe he uses colloquial turns of phrase, but he's possibly quite literate.

As an Aspie, and someone who has done a massive amount of research on Asperger's, I found the whole idea that somehow those with Asperger's speak really well a misconception. It all started because of how Hans Asperger observed in a group of boys (which is how he coined the diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome) that they they spoke very pedantic.

I'm sorry if I sound rude but I dislike being informed about things I know much about. As another Aspie I think you will understand. But what you have stated is actually not as true as a lot of people think it is. If you want my honest opinion I think these misconceptions are pushed by the parts of the autistic community that want to somehow prove they are "better" than neurotypicals. I'm guessing this is because of the fact they have probably been made to feel inferior most of their lives and incompetent, not to mention a group bias effect.

Edited 2008-11-02 21:15 (UTC)

*shrug* Every Aspie I've ever run into fits that conception, as do I (I'm a bit insane, actually - I was reading at 18 months).

I wasn't aware you're also an Aspie, sorry. All too often I run into people who go "Asperger's! That must mean mentally retarded!" or something equally stupid and untrue.

I'm going to assume by "every Aspie I've run into" you're probably talking about the internet. I want to say that the internet is a very bad research source when it comes to these manners. On the internet you don't know if these people are truly Aspie or not. Even in real life you can't rely on personal accounts to determine something. You have to form experiments with statistics to figure out if there's really a difference between Asperger's and non-Asperger's people in terms of literacy.

The best sources for how Aspies really are are case studies from books. True, these are personal accounts as well, but these patients have actually been diagnosed by a licensed professional and it's more likely a professional will make the correct diagnosis than someone who is not trained in the area.

It's really quite amazing how much Aspies on the internet differ from true studies of those who are Asperger's. In my experiences with the online world (particiularly

asperger here, which I got banned from) when it comes to Asperger's, people are really misinfomed and often rely on personal accounts of themselves and others. I'll be honest- I think they tend to be just as misinformed as the people who think that Asperger's/Autism means mental retardation or autism only means severe autism such as Low Functioning.

There is no diagnostic criteria that says those with Asperger's have to be literate. Technically, by definition, Asperger's means you have at least Average intelligence. There's nothing that says you have to have above average intelligence or be particularly literate.

Yes, in my personal experience as well, I am very literate and fluent, at least, IMO. But I tend not to rely on my own experiences when arguing such a general point because they can be skewed and not representative of an entire group of people.

The whole reason I wanted to make the character Asperger's was to show a different portrayal from what people are used to or what others think Asperger's is. I didn't want to show the stereotypical severe autistic, but I also didn't want to show the literate, fluent Asperger's person that the Asperger's community is so fond of.

Edited 2008-11-02 21:28 (UTC)

I am not. I am talking about Aspie support groups, etc. right here in my town.

Well, quite frankly, if you can't rely on what a majority say when you're dealing with a subjective diagnosis, then what CAN you rely on?

Well, interesting. It's weird to me that you live somewhere where you have met so many Aspies. But are these people in the support groups diagnosed officially? In a sense if there's no diagnosis qualification then it's the same as an online group, if you ask me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with self diagnosis but that people generally tend to not understand what makes something an abnormal behaviour or not. I've seen way too many people diagnose themselves with Asperger's because of personality quirks.

I don't think Asperger's is a "subjective diagnosis". I think the degree of Asperger's varies, but I don't know about subjective- at least not truly subjective. There's a cutting point somewhere.

Majority testimonies and accounts can be valid, but only to an extent. I'm wondering if you've ever taken a Stats class or know about Stats or conducting experiments. The most reliable method of doing something would be to conduct an experiment. Using statistics you can then figure out if there's truly a difference in literacy between Asperger's and non-Asperger's people based on the results you get. Of course, it's also best to repeat the experiment several times to check for anomalies and errors as they can happen. It's very possible to do such an experiment and I wouldn't be surprised if one has already been done that I don't know about. It'd be interesting to see the results. Even if there is a statistical difference in literacy there's still the fact that not every one is going to fit the results.

I could sit here and lecture all day about the merits of certain information and sources, and experiments, and statistical methods, and why personal accounts and even case studies can be an inaccurate representation- but I honestly don't feel like it right now and you seem set on your opinion.

Edited 2008-11-02 21:43 (UTC)

Most of them are officially diagnosed, yes.

Well, a lot of the *symptoms* are subjective, let's put it that way. One of the ones that got me diagnosed was "motor skill problems." But where do you cross the line between "quirky" and "problem?" I had trouble skipping until I was 16. Problem, or quirk? It's not like skipping is an essential life skill. That's why I say it's subjective. A lot of the symptoms - the ones I was diagnosed on, at least - have a lot of shades of gray in them.

As for stats, there is a reason I'm not a maths major ^_^;; Apparently I stood in line for literary skills twice and missed the maths line. (I've never been able to understand anything past prealgebra.)

I'm not saying I can't be wrong, it's just that in my experience it's unusual to find an illiterate Aspie.

There are actually rules as to what makes a behaviour abnormal or not. Generally, in simple terms, it has to interfere with your functioning to a significant amount. Skipping oddly actually isn't technically considered a problem unless the reason that you skip oddly also interferes with other motor activities that have to do with your functioning.

No offense, but you can argue whether it's subjective all you want and it'll still be wrong, if you ask me. Shades of gray is different from the boundary between abnormal and normal behaviour.

Yes, but what's a "significant amount?" Like . . . shit, I don't know how to explain what I mean. Like, okay, some people have no feet and they get prosthetics and go on with life pretty much as normal. Other people have no feet and they spend their lives in wheelchairs, even if the injury is more or less the same. One person rules the disability; the other is ruled, at least to an extent, by it. Did that make any sense at all?

You make sense, but I think there's a difference between physical limitations and behaviour.

I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking off on a total tangent.

Oh, and it's alright you didn't know I'm an Aspie. But yeah, this is my area. I'm a psych major and when I get my PhD I'm heavily considering Asperger's/HFA in teens and adults to be my specialty. It is one of my interests and I know a massive amount about Asperger's.

Originally I actually was going to write a very fluent and literate character but then realised that would be playing into the opposite spectrum of the stereotype. The character doesn't write incredibly horrible, it's not like Mark Twain or Flowers For Algernon, but he has a tendency to talk in run-on sentences and use Southern words/word modifications.

It does seem, so far, that the character is not very intelligent, but after awhile I will make it apparent he can be intelligent- like when it comes to flowers or folk music, two things he loves. He reads a lot about both and knows hundreds of names of flowers and all sorts of scientific information. But his knowledge of things is limited, not on the whole. As a character he just has Average intelligence but he's definitely not mentally retarded. (:

*shrug* Maybe I'm just a freak of nature, then. Seriously, one of the points to my diagnosis was an almost idiot-savant reading and writing ability. (I know "idiot savant" isn't the correct term anymore, but I'm damned if I can remember what it is now.) If I were as good at maths and science as I am at English, I could have graduated high school when I was 16. I was under the impression that most Aspies were, if not quite as insane as me, at least fairly advanced.

You're not a "freak of nature" but your impression is incorrect. You are not the only one who has such an impression though. I can certainly see where the impression comes from and why so many people have that impression.

Also if you're Aspie then generally you have trouble thinking of the world in a way that is not like your own personal account, belief systems, and thoughts. Aspies tend to be egocentric in their thinking (note: before I get yelled at, this isn't the same as saying that those with Asperger's don't care about other people.)

I'm actually in agreement that, from what I know, there seems as if there's a higher degree of literacy and fluency amongst those with Asperger's in comparison to the general population. However, I've seen many studies where such an assertion wasn't true, and it's not part of the diagnostic criteria. Until there's a study been done with repeated results, it's hard to say which one is true- but I do find the literacy/fluency thing to be a misconception.

Apparently my old psychologist is under a misconception too, then. Because that was one of the things my mum brought up, and he said yeah, it was really common in Aspies, even though it's not considered an actual diagnosis point (if it were, Shakespeare would probably be one of the biggest Aspies who ever lived).

It should help me with NaNo. I'm not complaining ^_^

Fucking internet. >>

I tend to find reading/writing accents very difficult, unless they're used sparingly. (I've got a Scottish character in my novel; I'm not even going to try to write him an accent.) But that's me. I think for a first draft, write it the way it comes out naturally, whatever won't drive you crazy. The point this month isn't to edit, it's to get it on paper.

I know for a fact I've already switched from third-person narration to first-person at least once, and I'm ignoring it for now, because fixing it is too much of a pain until I get way ahead on my word count.

I think for your accents, it's sort of the same thing. As long as you're writing it in a way that you can read later in order to edit, I think you're okay. If it's making you crazy to write the accent or lack of punctuation or whatever - don't. Or maybe switch POV for a while, so your Aspy's character is only telling the story sometimes, and it's someone else telling it the rest of the time. (Not knowing your story, I have NO idea if this works or not.)

I'm writing a novel that takes place in the deep South, (Alabama). I am from this area, and I definitely have a tiny bit of the accent. Some of my characters will speak like I do, others will have the deep south accent. I'm not having too much of a problem with it.

I think the best way for you would be the eternal: Fake it, til you feel it. Force it, and before long it will come naturally. I think editing it in would be a bad idea, because it would take along time, and be fairly difficult.

If all else fails, you can just not do it. People will still identify him if he speaks normally, but you throw in several cultural references.

The way I have been doing it is to have the narrator, in first person, observe how the caracter says certain words. For instance, the other character rolls his rs. After pointing that out once or twice, it sticks with the reader. Later, if the character curiously mispronounces a word or it seems off to the narrator, I point that out as well. Like his love for the word mittens, refusing to say gloves.

Another character mispronounces the narrators name, elongating it to three syllables, rather than two. I let the character sound it out for the audience a few times. It's an endearing little trademark.

In the end, it's always best to show, not to tell. This is a fun way of showing how the other characters hear the accent:)

If you actually hear someone speak with an accent, a lot of times they say words just like people lacking ones do, save for some shortcuts in words they take like "y'know" and stuff like that.

What I would do, to save your sanity, is just establish that this person has an accent. Truly, anyone that would be reading the story will think to themselves "Oh, this book tells me this man has an accent. I can imagine how he sounds like as I am reading the words he says".

The only exception might be people whose mother tongue is not English, and some (but not everybody) don't speak with all the necessary words in a sentence. Even fewer speak in third person. I don't see this often in books except for a couple fantasy novels where the other side spoke very little "human" tongue.

Be careful to stay consistent if you're using "shortcut" words, though. It irritates me no end when I go back to reread what I'm writing (during non-NaNo times) and find that half the time I used "pick up y'damn shoes" (which is how I actually talk) and the other half it's "pick up your damned shoes" (which is what my brain thinks I should say). It's different if it's a difference between characters (I do have some characters who would say "your damned" instead of "y'damn"), but it's usually not.

This is also something to consider. Above all things, consistency is a major key point!

My first year I wrote a character (one quite bonkers at that) who talked with a stutter all the time, repeated words, messed with grammar etc. While it annoyed me at some points, it not only boosted my word count (which every new Nano is glad for) but it also, weirdly, helped me to get into this character's extremely messed up head at some points. When, if he spoke normally, or I were to write him speaking normally, I might make the mistake of writing him as a completely normal person.

So, for me, it helped, even though it was, on occasion, frustrating.

I say write it to the best of your ability. When you're writing in a voice that's drastically different from your own, I think that you always have to edit for consistency later. You just have to do your best to ignore the flow of what you're putting down.. which, I know, is much easier said then done ;)

It might help you to go the extra mile getting into your character's head before each writing session. Really try to be him while you're telling his story, because he wouldn't go back to see if what he was writing sounded like him or not. It might also help to tell yourself that you can go back and edit the day's work once you've reached your goal for the day.

I've found that timed writing helps me to focus on just getting words onto paper. Get yourself a little timer (there's lots available on the internet for free), set it for ten minutes and write as much as you can for those ten minutes. When the time is up, take a ten minute break to walk around, get a snack/drink, read your e-mail or check LJ. Repeat until you're done for the day.

I think the way to go is to give sparing hints at the accent - occasionally write the words as they sound, and try to indicate more with syntax and context. Open up a copy of Trainspotting for an idea of how inpenetrable writing an accent can be. Or read just about any comic with Gambit in it. *sighs*

I found The Curious Affair of the Dog in the Night-time to give a very readable first person view of a boy with Aspergers - I don't know how accurate the depiction was, but I certainly had an idea that he didn't view the world like the characters he was interacting with.

It's Curious Incident, and I've read it. As I told the person above I am Aspie myself and know a massive amount about Asperger's.

As for the book many Aspies say it's inaccurate but I actually enjoyed it and found it to be accurate, although the main character seems more High-Functioning Autistic to me than Asperger's.

I actually enjoyed it and found it to be accurate, although the main character seems more High-Functioning Autistic to me than Asperger's.

Well, that's good to know! I enjoyed the book, but had no idea of how accurate the representation was - I guessed it would be difficult to portray a character with a spectrum disorder, when there are so many possible permutations.

I don't know. I think it would drive me crazy to write a whole story in an accent. I can't really write accents well, though. Whenever I go back and read over any accents I write I feel like I've done them completely wrong, so I delete them and replace them with how I'd say it. It's kind of limiting, I guess.

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